Exploring Telouet's Berber Legacy with Local Historian Ali Ahdadi

Azdean [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the Destination Morocco podcast, the show that takes you away to the beautiful country of Morocco. I am your host, Azdean Elmoustaquim. In each episode, we explore moroccan culture, history, attractions and activities. Real and practical information coming from experienced travellers and native Moroccans like myself. And now let's go exploring.

Azdean [00:00:38]:
Welcome back to another amazing episode of Destination Morocco podcast. We are in the heart of Telouet. We are exactly at Telouet, at Auberge.

Azdean [00:00:48]:
Zu Telouet Oberg restaurant. Telouet Shi Ahmed.

Azdean [00:00:52]:
Oberge restaurant, Telouet Shi Ahmed. This is day one from our tour. Local time is about 09:00 p.m. And we have a very special guest with us today. His name is Mr. Ali Ahadi and he's one of the locals. He's a local guide, historian. And in this episode, we're going to talk about the berber culture because that's the number one request that we have been receiving from a lot of the guests.

Ali [00:01:18]:
So he's going to give us a little bit of background, a little bit of history about the Berber culture, tradition and so forth. And then he's going to talk about himself as well. So, Mr. Ali, would you please introduce yourself to the audience and tell us a little bit about you?

Ali [00:01:34]:
So thank you very much coming to us. And as well, thank you very much giving me this opportunity to introduce myself. So my name is Ali Ahdadi.

Ali [00:01:46]:
Ahdadi.

Ali [00:01:47]:
So what does mean Ahdadi? It means blacksmith.

Ali [00:01:50]:
Blacksmith.

Ali [00:01:51]:
Why? Because all over history, my ancestor until my father were the blacksmith as well. Since beginning of Glowy's power, since 18th century, my ancestors worked as blacksmith, the best blacksmith as well, for jewellery.

Ali [00:02:07]:
Jewellery, okay.

Ali [00:02:08]:
For that reason we have a family name as blacksmith. My daddy is blacksmith. So then my ancestors have skin of gazelle of sheep where they read down.

Ali [00:02:21]:
I see, so they write down.

Ali [00:02:23]:
Yeah. Story about Casbah, about caravans, about people of Tilwette as well. I am born in this area. Closer to this one.

Ali [00:02:34]:
Closer to this centre?

Ali [00:02:36]:
Yeah, this centre, four kilometres from here.

Ali [00:02:38]:
Oh, nice.

Ali [00:02:39]:
Because since 1956, my father and my grandfather go out from Casba, away from the village, four kilometres. Then I born in this village. After I went to school since 1981, primary school in my village. Village. Then high school in. Where is that?

Ali [00:03:02]:
I see.

Ali [00:03:03]:
I spent seven years in high school, then I went to university in Marrakesh, in which I studied economy.

Ali [00:03:11]:
What's the name of Ait?

Ali [00:03:14]:
Definitely in Daudiyat. And when I have my degree in economy, then I spent some years working in Agadir for example.

Ali [00:03:24]:
Oh, I see.

Ali [00:03:25]:
Then I come back to Tilwet to work as guides.

Ali [00:03:29]:
Local guides.

Ali [00:03:30]:
Why? Because I was very impressed by other culture.

Ali [00:03:34]:
Oh, I see.

Ali [00:03:35]:
You understand to mean other culture. To learn from other culture.

Ali [00:03:40]:
Sure.

Ali [00:03:40]:
I have my badge since 2018.

Ali [00:03:45]:
2018. So you're saying this is our place. This is our home. And a lot of us are involved in the tourism industry directly or indirectly. And to you it was a hobby until he became kind of a professional, if you would. Then you had your local guide licence. Then you had your national guide licence. Can you tell us the difference between a local guide versus a national guide?

Ali [00:04:11]:
So local one, you need to be expert of place where you. I see growing up. You are growing up. The national one, you must know all the country, all moroccan sites in term of history, in term of tradition, in term of city, in term of culture and everything.

Ali [00:04:33]:
That's very interesting. So basically a national guide. You can travel with the guests throughout Morocco without any issue. Because you have your badge. Yeah. Okay, perfect.

Ali [00:04:42]:
But because I am very comfortable here.

Ali [00:04:47]:
Yes.

Ali [00:04:47]:
And as well, I know a lot of people, money coming in, coming back. For that reason, I prefer to stay just. Yeah, okay.

Ali [00:04:57]:
Ait makes sense. It makes sense. So you're a Berber. I'm a Berber. This is our culture. A lot of people are not familiar with our culture. A lot of people are wondering, they have a lot of questions about our culture, who are the Berbers, where did they come from and so forth. Can you tell us a little bit of history about the Berbers? Different types of Berbers, the south versus the north versus the heightless, mountains versus sus.

Ali [00:05:24]:
Give us a little bit of background and history.

Ali [00:05:26]:
So first I would like to give some clarification about Berber and what does mean Berber. Before Islam came to Morocco and as well, North Africa, the indigenous were Berber. All North Africa. Algeria, Morocco, for example, India, North Africa, moroccan Berber. They are indigenous. There is plenty of berber community in Morocco. Does mean as well. There is plenty of Berber dialect in Morocco.

Ali [00:05:59]:
So Teluat, for example, we are schlue from high Atlas and western anti atlas.

Ali [00:06:09]:
Okay.

Ali [00:06:09]:
Schle. And schle is. We speak Tashlhid.

Ali [00:06:15]:
Tashlhid is the language.

Ali [00:06:17]:
So many thousand years ago there was Berber Schle in this area. And normally berber community refused this name Berber.

Ali [00:06:27]:
Yes.

Ali [00:06:27]:
You know why? Because was foreign to our culture. Is a name that the first conqueror, I mean, Roman.

Ali [00:06:37]:
Yes.

Ali [00:06:37]:
The Romans, the Romans and even Greek. When they come, start to come to Morocco, they gave this name.

Ali [00:06:45]:
For those indigenous, we prefer Amazia.

Ali [00:06:49]:
Amazia which one mean free?

Ali [00:06:52]:
Yes.

Ali [00:06:52]:
Tamazia. Freedom. So Berber mean wild.

Ali [00:06:57]:
Okay, so let me just make sure I understand just to give a little bit of explanation to the audience. So Berber was given to us by westerners, by the Romans, because the Berber came from origin, from barbarians, savages. But the original name is Amazer, which means free, freedom. And a lot of people in Morocco, they don't really like to be called Berbers, but they prefer actually to be called amazer, which means free people. Thank you for explaining that to us. It's really, really important. So what else can you share with.

Azdean [00:07:33]:
Us about the culture?

Ali [00:07:35]:
So we are now, right now in High Atlas?

Ali [00:07:37]:
Yes.

Ali [00:07:38]:
So berbershler in Hayatlas have existence here since many thousand years ago. So the proof is today we can see caves. The beginning people lived in caves. We plenty of caves around Tilwet.

Ali [00:07:55]:
Can you give us some examples of caves? I've been in caves. I slept in a cave with my dad. He works in mining. So I'm a little bit familiar with it. The ones that I've seen, they are from the portuguese period with the Portuguese trying to colonelize Morocco. But the caves that you're talking about are really old ones.

Ali [00:08:16]:
So we have plenty of those caves around Tirut one, for example, 18 kilometres from here.

Ali [00:08:22]:
Okay, what's the name of it?

Ali [00:08:23]:
Aseka in Aseca, in village in Dubai, to item and Hado in the other caves in village, lost village here in the mountains called Tim Montut.

Ali [00:08:34]:
Timontut.

Ali [00:08:36]:
But there is plenty of caves. We don't know for sure until now. So we can see how Berber evolved in turmoil of architecture as well. So at the beginning those Berber lived in caves. Then they discover, for example, a kind of building with mud.

Ali [00:09:00]:
Yes.

Ali [00:09:01]:
You understand?

Ali [00:09:01]:
With mud.

Ali [00:09:02]:
With mud, straw towns. Then we can see volition with towns.

Ali [00:09:09]:
Yes. So basically what you're saying is there has been an improvement or an evolution in terms of the Berbers or the Amazon. At first in the caves, then discovering the clay, then the straw, then building the regular homes. And you can see those traditional houses, we'll see them throughout. And then now a lot of people use a little bit more modern techniques and stones and so forth to build the new houses. So where do the Amazio or the Berber come from? What's the original, the origin of the Berbers?

Ali [00:09:45]:
Just before first I will give some information about Telouet community. So since time of Roman, the Romans. Okay, there were Jewish coming here.

Ali [00:09:56]:
Yes.

Ali [00:09:57]:
To tell what they were persecuted by Roman. They stayed until, for example, Israel was created. Does ait mean those people come in as well? They became Berber?

Ali [00:10:07]:
Yeah.

Ali [00:10:08]:
In term of my knowledge, until 1948, 20% of people living here are jewish intel. What is very characteristic berber people altogether mixed. Mixed in. Living altogether in wonderful cohabitation, peacefully. We have friends, sometimes jewish, come back and dispute Berber. They are mixed in term of culture.

Ali [00:10:33]:
Yes.

Ali [00:10:34]:
They are mixed in term of skin. Skin doesn't mean you can see black people, white people in term of culture. As I told, there was Jewish, there was Berber. So it's a place for everyone. Yeah. Where plenty of culture lived together peacefully.

Ali [00:10:51]:
Absolutely. Okay. The other question that I have, there's the culture between the Jews and the Muslims, especially in here, you can't really tell the difference because they're all mixed in. And in some cities, you can look at somebody and say, oh, he looks jewish, for example, or he looks Berber, because the Berbers, they have distinctive facial features and stuff like that. So inherently, what, because of that coexistence, you can't really tell somebody's jewish or not jewish. And when I was growing up, I couldn't tell. I didn't see no difference. But I still see in my own village little bit of the culture and the tradition back to the jewish time.

Ali [00:11:32]:
I also know for a fact that there's a synagogue from the 8th century very close by village in Erelbian. It's not really well maintained, but there's an opportunity to maintain it, restore it. So in this type of. In the mountains, in Telouet and the neighbouring villages, the culture was mixed. So you can see in the burgers, there's a lot of jewish influence, whether it's in the food, whether it's in the architecture, whether it's in the colour, the fabric and stuff like that, which is a really good thing. So a lot of people don't know this about the local community or the jewish community. So, Mr. Ali, for people that are visiting Telouet, Telouet is little bit known to the Europeans, but it's extremely invisible to the west, in the US, in Canada and so forth.

Ali [00:12:22]:
What can you tell about tiluat to those visitors, to those tourists? What should they expect?

Ali [00:12:29]:
So, in my experience, working many years in tourism, all visitors coming to tiruat, they are fascinated when they arrive there, for sure as well. Most of those visitors coming mostly from Europe, we have some other visitors coming, but few from United States of America, but most we know from Europe, a lot of them come and come back because in term of beautiful experience and the beautiful time we spent, absolutely. Telouet is rich in term of diversity of people, this coexistence between many different culture. Second, because thereworth fall of history.

Ali [00:13:14]:
Yeah, for sure.

Ali [00:13:15]:
All over history. Telouet was connection between Africa and Europe via caravans.

Ali [00:13:22]:
I see.

Ali [00:13:22]:
All over history. Caravans came from Africa, from Niger, from Mali, from Sudan, from Mauritania, with object to day value like slaves, gowell silver, emerald, spices, expensive stone then as well. It's very rich in term of geology, yes.

Ali [00:13:43]:
Oh, absolutely.

Ali [00:13:44]:
Plenty of colours. Plenty from Tishka until aitban haddu. So it's very rich, different colours. Ted. White south caravans came through here because telwat was very rich in term of salt mine. There was plenty, especially in the salt was money, the most important money in former time until. Until even 1980 or 19.

Ali [00:14:42]:
The call for prayer has ended. So it is in our culture to respect the Azdean and. Thank you. So we were talking about salt and the importance of salt in our culture, especially also when it comes to animals and raising animals, not just for humans but also for animals, it has a lot of health benefits. And I remember as a kid, we give salt to the sheep, to the goats, to the cows as well. And also I remember my uncles or my cousins bringing salts from the fields during the weekly souk, which is in Thursday, people buy salt and normally it's not a powder, but it's a rock. I remember it used to be pink. Some of it was pink.

Ali [00:15:27]:
So, yes, if you can elaborate a little bit on the importance of salt in our culture, especially in tiwet and also in terms of raising animals.

Ali [00:15:36]:
So first, for animals, they take salt from mine, for example, to stable.

Ali [00:15:45]:
Oh, I see.

Ali [00:15:46]:
For animals to lick it every morning because it kills germs.

Ali [00:15:51]:
Oh, I see, yes. I remember in my case, my grandfather, he used to have a big stone, as big as a pillow, and he will hold it at that time, the sheep will come from the field, they have eaten their grass and everything, and he'll give it to them. But he also gives them barley share and they do this to make them strong, especially when if they're going to sell them afterwards or just to keep them in shape and healthy. So I remember a little bit of the culture, but not a lot. Okay, what about the importance of it.

Ali [00:16:25]:
To Tilwet, besides being money in former time for caravan stride in, for example, you use it to preserve butter.

Ali [00:16:35]:
Oh, I see.

Ali [00:16:36]:
To preserve, like meat. Because in the former time, salt was.

Ali [00:16:42]:
One of the ingredients.

Ali [00:16:43]:
Yeah. Ingredient used to preserve butter. Food as well, for industry of skin, for hammem, to build hammam okay, fes, I remember.

Azdean [00:16:54]:
So I'm just going to elaborate a little bit of what you have said, Mr. Ali, for hammam, which is the traditional moroccan hammam or steam bath, some call it, when they built the hammam, the salt normally is going to be the first layer put on the ground before they build anything else. So everything is built on top of a layer of salt. I remember this very clearly, and also I wanted to add something to what you have said to preserve the meat. Back then, even maybe 15 or whatever years ago, nobody had refrigerators, we didn't have light growing up in the village, so there was just candles and other means to get light. But I remember during a certain time when you have a lot of meat or excessive meat to preserve it, especially during the holidays, I've seen my grandmother do it, I've seen a lot of my family do this, but they hang the meat and then what they do is they apply salt and they apply olive oil to it. That way the meat does not get spoiled and also it stays fresh. Normally the meat is consumed completely within few days, but it also stays fresh.

Ali [00:18:04]:
So they may have to remove the first layer of the meat, but anything else underneath it, it looks really fresh.

Ali [00:18:12]:
And we still have family. The same.

Ali [00:18:16]:
Oh wow. Same technique.

Ali [00:18:17]:
Technique until today.

Ali [00:18:19]:
Oh wow.

Ali [00:18:19]:
And me, sometimes they preserve it for many months.

Ali [00:18:25]:
Oh, wow.

Ali [00:18:26]:
And when we eat it mostly in Cusco, yes, it's very tasty. And it's a berber food.

Ali [00:18:34]:
It is.

Ali [00:18:35]:
It's a special food.

Ali [00:18:37]:
Are you talking about kurdes?

Ali [00:18:39]:
Fes.

Ali [00:18:43]:
Kurdes is a little different. And kurdes, it's a delicacy. It's a moroccan delicacy. And you have to understand, in the beef, the goat, the cow, nothing really goes to waste. We eat everything. For me, the kurdas, it's intestines and it's kind of rolled up against each other and it gets dried up with a little bit of meat inside. And then it's served specially with couscous on special Friday. Normally.

Ali [00:19:12]:
But the funny thing, my memory as a child, I always knew when my mom or my aunts have made couscous with kurdas because of the smell. It has very strong smell and I could not eat it, but it was delicious to them.

Ali [00:19:29]:
May I like it?

Ali [00:19:32]:
I think I'm the only one in the family who does not eat it, but everybody else just loves it. So that was just incredible. If you can share more about the culture, especially when it comes to food.

Ali [00:19:45]:
And stuff like that, first I will finish with salt. Okay, as well.

Ali [00:19:50]:
Thank you.

Ali [00:19:50]:
It is very useful for health. For example, I remember my father as well. Besides being blacksmith, he make a kind of physiotherapy with salt.

Ali [00:20:03]:
I see.

Ali [00:20:03]:
For animals when they have problems in their body.

Ali [00:20:07]:
Okay, so physical therapy.

Ali [00:20:10]:
Yeah, mine and olive oil. Olive oil and his hand kind of massage. Then animal of people recover after this.

Ali [00:20:20]:
But here's the thing, though. Very interesting that you said that. I know a lot of people, they have a special gift. This is not anybody can do it. Probably I could be wrong, but it's a special gift that few people have with that healing, kind of massaging, healing power. That was very special as well.

Ali [00:20:39]:
Today, right now, the soul has other benefits. For example, spiritual one.

Ali [00:20:46]:
I see.

Ali [00:20:47]:
When you feel, for example, like depressed or tired with soul mine and water. When you take shower, you get a kind of consolation.

Ali [00:20:58]:
Perfect. What else can you share with us in terms of the culture? What can people expect? Besides everything that you have just mentioned.

Ali [00:21:06]:
There is plenty of activity we can do here, like hiking, trekking. Okay, so because Telwat as well is connection in high atlas, between Aitbuga, Mez and Tupkal. So there is a trip across of high atlas.

Ali [00:21:21]:
Yes.

Ali [00:21:21]:
So as well, we make tricking from here to Aitman had to walking all over.

Ali [00:21:27]:
Walking. Yeah, that's quite a bit of a distance.

Ali [00:21:29]:
All over valley. And as well, just I would like to give one information about Valley Odila in Dubai to Aitman Hado.

Ali [00:21:37]:
Yes.

Ali [00:21:38]:
One of the most important painter called Jacques Mazorel Fes. Which one has garden in Marrakesh.

Ali [00:21:44]:
Yes.

Ali [00:21:45]:
Before Marrakech, he was living here between Telwat to Itman, had to Himi Hodila village. And all this valley was painted by Jacques Mazor.

Ali [00:21:55]:
Wow.

Ali [00:21:56]:
So 1920 until 1928. Mazoriel was impressed by first by landscape, by colour and by architecture, old architecture. So today we have a kind of tourist coming just to follow trip of.

Ali [00:22:11]:
Oh, I see, just. Okay.

Ali [00:22:13]:
And as well, today there is event, international event, which give big promotion for tuwet called Atlas Rice Mountains.

Ali [00:22:21]:
Okay, Atlas Rice Mountains.

Ali [00:22:24]:
We had the third edition last February, for example.

Ali [00:22:28]:
Okay, February. Okay.

Ali [00:22:29]:
Last February, for example, we had about 200 rider.

Ali [00:22:33]:
Oh, wow.

Ali [00:22:33]:
They started from Marrakesh, then arrival to Isawera over Atlas mountains 24 hours.

Ali [00:22:40]:
Oh, wow.

Ali [00:22:41]:
So now it's getting famous. According to this event. And many international magazine talk about this event and about Tizzi Tilwett.

Ali [00:22:52]:
Okay, perfect. What would a normal itinerary look like for somebody who's visiting Telouet? How much time do they need? To be in Telouet. I know you mentioned few things here in tluat as activities that they can do. What else can they do in Tuwat? Is two days good? Is one day good? Is three days or a week good enough for Tluwat?

Ali [00:23:14]:
Or is it too much for walking? I organise tricking. Six days tricking from her to eight man Hado or from her to eight bogamas over like Ted.

Ali [00:23:26]:
Ted. So six days personally, for me six days is way too much personally.

Ali [00:23:31]:
But most tourists if they stay for long, Tilwood, not more than two days. Okay, I see just why. Because they used to have destruction in Telouet, for example, we have a kind of, you know, they want more distraction, of course. And as well, according to their schedule they have much to see. So it's short. But in this short time they want to see plenty of things, plenty of places.

Ali [00:24:04]:
So intluat they shouldn't do more than two days. In this case, I definitely agree.

Ali [00:24:09]:
Walking over valley, for example, or around Tilwet. Okay. And there is a kind of tourist today. Recently they are looking to go the first day, for example from bear to top of Tisin Tilworth. Then the other day, yes, other village 15 kilometres from her.

Ali [00:24:30]:
I got you. For me as a child, one of the most popular destinations was Asne. I never had a chance to do it. The kids, my cousins and everybody that went, they really, really loved it. They get to it through Unilavelle, I believe. But for me it was Asarun Sara. That was my favourite. Asaron Sarah.

Ali [00:24:49]:
I mean, we wake up at about 05:00 a.m. And we just climb mountains. And you look at the mountain and you think that's it. You climb that mountain but there's another huge mountain behind it. Then you climb it, then you find the third mountain, then the fourth mountain. So it was a lot of fun for us as kids, but also it was very, very hard to do. And then when we get to the destination, it's incredibly beautiful. And I remember doing those.

Ali [00:25:14]:
And also I remember one time, obviously we do this with a local, my cousins, they have to be with us, otherwise we have no idea where we're going. So one time what happened to us, it was just city boys, me and my cousins. And we thought we're going to go up and just have fun. But the thing is we got lost. If you're not local, there's four seasons in one day here in fluid. Yes. And what happens? It was about three, four o'clock and it start raining. And when it rains, the mountain becomes kind of really dark grey and it's very hard to see.

Ali [00:25:47]:
So we got lost. And if you don't know where you're going, you'll be lost for probably four days. But it was at the end, we found our way and it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. We're about to conclude this episode. You've been very helpful, very informative and I really, really appreciate it. Is there any other questions that I should have asked you but I did not.

Ali [00:26:08]:
Mr. Ali, the question is about how we can make teluat more visible. Visible with this history Telwat have in caravans. In term of culture, in terms diversity. So is the question how we can contribute in development of question you want.

Ali [00:26:31]:
Me to answer ait? Do you want to answer it?

Ali [00:26:33]:
I don't know about.

Ali [00:26:34]:
Okay, here's really the way that I see it. Fes years ago, Pliwad did not exist in any map. If you're not from here, if this is not your culture, this is not your turf, you wouldn't know where you're going. It just does not exist in the map. It just looks like a mountain. But now with technology and you know exactly what it know. Imonin versus Oslim in the other villages. So technology has definitely helped.

Ali [00:27:00]:
But also when you look at Europe and tourists from Europe, they are a lot more familiar with Morocco than other tourists from different parts of the world. So for me the challenging is the government expanding the knowledge and promoting the destination, which I know they're doing really good job and I've seen their ads in the media, I've seen it on tv, I've seen it in New York, especially recently. But the thing is, it's where you are from. Let's say we live in the US, but the south is really not popular in the US. The north definitely is, but the south is not popular. If you look at Asia Pacific Asia, the same thing. A lot of people love Morocco, but they have not enough information about Morocco. So for me it's a really collective effort.

Ali [00:27:46]:
And this is one of the reasons why we're doing what we're doing today, because we want to promote the south. We want to promote your village, my village, our tluat. It belongs to all of us. It did so much for all of us. And it's time for us to give something back to it. It's probably going to take few years to get to that level. I don't think it's ever going to be kind of equal between tourists from Europe versus tourists from us. It's going to take some time for sure, but eventually Kuwat will get the recognition it deserves and the popularity it deserves.

Ali [00:28:20]:
Because in terms of culture, history, it's thousands and thousands of years of layers of all those things. And it's very beautiful. I love it. It's been four years for me since I've been here last time. And I'm beyond thrilled and excited. I mean, I say the same thing in every whatever we post, but it is the truth. And I love my culture, I love my people. And personally, I'll do my part.

Ali [00:28:46]:
What we have right now in term of tourism activity in Tilwet, we have it just because of many international books, guides.

Ali [00:28:56]:
Yes.

Ali [00:28:57]:
Can I give example?

Ali [00:28:58]:
Of course.

Ali [00:28:59]:
For example, rotar loudly planet Gary Mar, you and other guides. So does it mean just foreign people might help us to make 100% for me, those visitors, they are our ambassadors.

Ali [00:29:17]:
Absolutely.

Ali [00:29:18]:
And the other point, moroccan state is not involving in term of investment to increase tourism. But I am very optimistical because we have some recently we have Duni vision Duneil mayor, for example. Mayor, he has global vision about how we can get more activity, more vietnamese mental wealth.

Ali [00:29:46]:
I completely agree. It's going to be a team effort for sure. Well, Mr. Ali, really, really appreciate you. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure having you a guest in destination Morocco podcast and I'm looking forward for tomorrow we're going to spend some time exploring discovering the kaspa of tluet. Thank you so much.

Ali [00:30:05]:
Inshallah. Thank you very much coming from far away to our city. And thank you very much spending.

Ali [00:30:13]:
Thank you so much.

Ali [00:30:14]:
This beautiful time with us and all the best.

Ali [00:30:17]:
Thank you.