What Travel in Morocco Was Like in 1989, with Cathy Nesbitt

​[00:00:00] AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Welcome back adventurers to Destination Morocco, the podcast that takes you on a journey throughout vibrant escapes, rich culture, and captivating stories from Morocco.

I am your host, Azdean Elmoustaquim, and today we have a very special guest with us, Cathy Nesbitt. I hope I'm saying your last name correct.

CATHY NESBITT: It's perfect.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. She traveled to Morocco 35 years ago. A trip that left an incredible mark on her life. But, as you will soon hear, it almost did not happen.

Cathy, welcome to the show. And would you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

CATHY NESBITT: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to share a little bit of my story. So I'm Cathy Nesbitt. I'm located in Canada and in, yeah, in 1989 I had the [00:01:00] chance to, I was on a world trip. I was on a world tour of around Africa and Asia and Morocco was my first. Introduction to Africa, that was my first foot in Africa was in Morocco and it was magic.

It was beautiful. It was, I think everybody should travel there.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Thank you. Thank you. We are so thrilled to have you. Now, 35 years ago, a different era of travel, Cathy. What sparked your interest in Morocco back then?

CATHY NESBITT: I was, I had heard, uh, we had friends who had also done, uh, a world tour and they talked highly about Morocco, how unique it was and the cultural differences. And we were just intrigued by, um, the idea of, I mean, camels and the desert and everything was, is just so, um, so different from what we were used to in Canada.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Absolutely. It certainly is. [00:02:00] So, Cathy, you mentioned it almost didn't happen, in our communication back and forth to do the episode. Can you dive in? A little bit into that and tell us exactly what happened, especially in Tetouan. I know that the city was was kind of a turning point that that experience that really changed a lot of things for you, Cathy.

CATHY NESBITT: Yeah, so we took the boat across from, from Spain, from Gibraltar and went to Ceuta, which we, we didn't know in the brochure. We thought we were in Morocco. But alas, no, we were still in Spain, just that little piece. And it took us time. We had our backpacks, so it took time for us to get ready. And by that time all the other passengers had had left the area and we we didn't even know where the border was We said oh, what's there's no we don't have to show our passport anywhere And of course, there was a taxi waiting for us there, even though it was just around the corner So we got in the taxi went around the corner [00:03:00] and said, oh, well here we are You know and to be honest we were we were quite naive we were just wanted to experience the world and We were open.

I guess we were kind of lucky that somebody was looking over us and we were, we were approached at the, at the border. Um, a gentleman came up and he said, welcome to Morocco and, uh, started talking to my husband and he said, He took the passport, he said to me, go to the border and just get it stamped. Like they didn't want to talk to my husband, it was so easy, it was so free.

And then he assigned us a guide. Mohammed was our guide and he was just practicing his English, was the story that we were told. And thank goodness for Mohammed. It was so beautiful. So we arrived, we got on the bus, uh, or in the, it was, we actually were in a private car and we went to Tetouan and Mohammed, [00:04:00] Mohammed took us around and it was beautiful.

His English was very good. I don't think he needed to practice at all.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Thank you. 

CATHY NESBITT: So he helped us find a hotel, like a place to stay and All the way along, right from the border, we were told that it was a special day. I mean, the story is really magical, because we were so naive, and, and it was really a fascinating story. Now telling it, we seemed like we were ridiculous bumpkins, that we just came out from a cabbage patch.

That's what it seems like when I tell the story, but we, they said it's a special day. The Berbers have come down from the mountain. They're gonna, they're selling their carpets that they make by hand, and we were so excited. Wow, imagine arriving on this one special day. 

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: I know exactly what you're 

saying. I don't know exactly what you're going to say next few seconds, because this is really, really common. So for me, what I, what I wanted to explain a little bit to the audience is, you know, uh, there are two cities and a few islands that are [00:05:00] Moroccans, but they're still, And the control of Spain, Spanish.

and Ciptha or Ceuta is one of them. So when you said you went to Tetouan with the local guide, um, it sounds to me like you're about to get scammed. Am I right, Cathy?!

CATHY NESBITT: Well, it's sort of, in a way, it kind of felt like that, you know, Muhammad was paid all the way along. He was paid it, you know, he got bakhshisha at the hotel, at the market, it was way, you know, the beautiful part about this, we did not really get scammed, we, you know, it might seem like a scam, but we still have the carpets that we bought that day.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Oh, that's amazing.

So, Muhammad was paid and he got his bakshish, which means a tip for a lot of people who may not know. So and take it

CATHY NESBITT: So, once we got installed in our, in our hotel, he took us to this market and that was an incredible experience. We were in [00:06:00] there, oh my gosh, I think we were in this market for six hours. Like in the carpet place. The Moroccan hospitality, the tea, and we smoked cigarettes at the time, so we were smoking and drinking tea and, and every, there was all kinds of little rooms set up and we were so amazed.

We said, wow, one day, look at all the work that they put out for one day. So I know it wasn't one day. Folks, we, we know now it was not one day market and it was incredible. Every room we went past, they were speaking a different language. We felt like, wow, the Moroccans can speak any language. They can sell you anything in any language.

And it was so amazing. It was really an incredible experience. So there we were, we were traveling for 13 months and we spent, I think we spent $3,000 on. Those carpets and we didn't even know we were in the buying. That was the magical part. When we look back, it's like incredible because there we were having our tea.

We thought we were just having an [00:07:00] experience and we were. And the, there was a young man who was, so there was the salesperson who was talking to us in perfect English. And then he had a young, a young man who was unfurling the carpets and it was a beautiful experience. So they only spoke in Arabic, which was, was quite convenient.

Laughter.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: For them. Yes. For sure.

CATHY NESBITT: We had no idea, right? We were like, isn't this fun? This is a great experience. Wait till we write our parents. And, and it really was a magical thing. And so they unfurled, I don't know, 40, 50 carpets and all beautiful, really magnificent carpets. And then, We were asked, okay, we're going to hold up. Tell us which ones you like.

Okay, that one. Yes. No. Yes. No. We ended up with 10 carpets anyway that we really liked. So then they said, okay, um, like, of course, we're not buying 10 carpets and he knew that. [00:08:00] so which ones. Okay, then we ended up anyway, we whittled it down to two and there's, and, you know, he was such a wonderful. In his, his, uh, whole approach was so practiced, it was so practiced, but we had no idea that we were in the, we didn't know we were buying, um, until we, we walked away and we're like, oh my gosh, now we want carpets for 3,

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: what happened?

CATHY NESBITT: a big chunk of our money for the whole year was gone in one, in one day.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Oh, my gosh. Yes.

CATHY NESBITT: the beautiful part. Okay, so we ended up with our carpets. And when we came out, Muhammad was waiting for us. He walked with us to the post office, we dropped off our carpets, and we thought, okay, goodbye to $3,000.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: So you shipped it right away.

CATHY NESBITT: it, and it arrived, it was about three months, but we didn't care, we were away for

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Yeah. this is back in 1989. I'm sure there was no FedEx. I'm sure there's no, no, you know, DHL or, you know, it's everything you need to do. You have to [00:09:00] go through the post office and then the post office was not really cheap. So I know that for a fact. Yeah. So the shipping must cost you a little bit.

Yeah.

CATHY NESBITT: Yeah, and then it was all fine, that was all part of it. So we came out, and you know, Tetouan, back to Tetouan, it was very a border town, it was um, I don't know how it is now, I'm certain that there's more measures to attract people to come there.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Oh, yeah. Oh,

CATHY NESBITT: You know, but it was very, um, I would say rough. We saw people fighting and like just different, we felt a little bit afraid and, you know, haggling was new for us.

and barter. We didn't, we didn't understand this, that you, yeah, we didn't understand this piece. And even when we got, so we decided the next day, oh my gosh, this is, is this Morocco? This is, this is harsh. And, and Mohammed, a few times, you know, other people were coming up to sell us things or something. He was like, Again, in [00:10:00] Arabic, probably saying bugger off their mind. I don't know what he

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: That still happens to this day. It still does

CATHY NESBITT: It's just being aware. And we were so grateful for him because he, he, we were like, oh, we were protected because we were walking around with, with, really, it was beautiful. So when, so the next morning he came to, he met us at the hotel.

Took us to the bus. It was a beautiful, that part was beautiful and we could have at that moment said, let's get out. Let's get out of here. But we said, maybe let's give Morocco a chance. Let's, let's go to, like, you can't tell a town, a whole country from one

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Of course.

CATHY NESBITT: And then we made our way to Chefchaouen.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Yes.

CATHY NESBITT: Oh my gosh, and we stayed there an extra couple of days because it was such a magical experience.

In the mountains, it was, uh, much slower, slower paced, uh, it was in the winter and I don't know if it's winter there. Yeah, winter. So it [00:11:00] was a little bit cooler. We had all of our clothes on. And what we really loved to this day, we talk about the soup that is served in Morocco. It seems to be a bottomless It's part of soup that gets added to every day and it's just a continuous, that's what it seemed. Um, and what we learned was that in the restaurants, if, if you don't have anywhere to live, you don't have any money, you can go into these restaurants and have a bowl of soup and a chunk of bread.

And that was so moving. Because it's not like that everywhere. Um, so we were, we, and, and the soup is delicious, by the way.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Okay, I'm just going to add a few things to what you have said, Cathy, because we talk about it on the podcast time and again, many, many times we, we mentioned it. The tours, the tour guides, it's They make or break your tour. They make or break your experience and they make such a [00:12:00] difference.

So If you're lucky and have a really nice local guide with you, trust me Like you said that they will protect you they will you know, if you walk in by yourself through you know the the Medina through the downtown or the old city Everybody's gonna haggle you. Everybody's gonna say, come here, come here.

It's 2, 5. Look at this. And they've been showing you stuff and trying to sell you stuff. But with, with a local guide, um, you don't get to, to experience that, which is really, really good. Then when you go, for example, I know you, you were not planning to buy, but that's how smooth the, the, the shop or the person was, um, you know, it just felt.

You know, everything was falling into place. And then the end result, you got to buy some rugs and he's happy and everybody's happy. Um, you know, Tietouan has changed quite a bit tremendously since then. Um, and then when you look at Chefchaouen, Chefchaouen at that time was still unknown to most of the locals even. So when you visit [00:13:00] Chefchaouen, I mean, it's it's a hilly city.

It's it's in the mountains the Rif Mountains Obviously, it's going to be cold in during the winter a little bit cool even the summer time But then I I talked about the culture in in Chefchaouen, people of Chefchaouen are very laid back. They are not modern people, but they are very laid back and the hospitality is just, it's just incredible.

So, um, and I'm glad you mentioned that. You know, we're talking 35 years ago and the things are almost still the same. So Tetouan, it's, it's known for its Jewish heritage. There's a lot of Jewish places to, to visit. Uh, they call it the pigeon city. That's, you know, the white pigeon city. Uh, it's a beautiful city as well.

It has changed quite a bit and, and it's definitely worth the visit. So take a back, take us back, if you would please, Cathy, to the rest of your experience in Morocco, but specifically we'll pick up where we left off in Chefchaouen, please.

CATHY NESBITT: Yeah, so we, we just had a wonderful, peaceful time. It was such a [00:14:00] contrast to our time in Tetouan. Uh, so we stayed there for a couple of days. It was beautiful. And from there we went down to Fez. And, and, you know, as you know, I was going to say, you know, you, of course, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're talking about it, you're promoting it, it's so beautiful.

Each, each place that we visited was different.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Of course.

CATHY NESBITT: Each place had a different feel. Yes, it was, it was really, and for us again, a very new experience. Uh, was really wonderful. I, I can't talk enough about the Moroccan hospitality. Yes, everyone's trying to sell you something. It's business, it's life. Um, just trying to live a life.

Uh, so no, nothing against that. That's, that's how it goes. That's Right. But it was so beautiful. And so in Fes, the, the walled city and the souk and just, ah, the whole thing and being Canadian. Of course, we had our Canadian pins because we don't want to be, [00:15:00] um, mistaken. That's right. Looking at us, we look the same, you know, when we have that little Canadian flag, I'm not sure how much clout it holds today, but 35 years ago, we were revered because Canada was held as a place You know, we taught pilots how to fly in B.C. mountains for Nepali pilots. You know, we've done a lot of work around the world as peacekeepers. And, yeah, so I don't, I'm not sure today what our stance is around the world, but at that time.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: they, you know, Canada in Morocco is, it's, it's well known, um, you know, for the same reasons. Uh, it's an amazing destination. Beautiful, nice, uh, people, uh, very generous as well. So yeah.

CATHY NESBITT: Yeah, so beautiful. So, we spent a little bit of time in Fez, and then we went down to Marrakesh. where everyone wants to go

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: [00:16:00] Yes. Yes.

CATHY NESBITT: what you hear about, you know, and Marrakesh. Wow. I have to say, it's, it's really quite something. We had the opportunity to meet up with a friend who was living in France and had friends in Morocco.

He happened to be in Marrakesh at the same time. And believe it or not, at the Jemma Elfna market. That's where we saw him, at the square. That's, we saw him, he was across, it was like, oh my gosh, there's Kevin. Like, what? There's hundreds of people, and there he was. And so because we had, again, um, somebody to help us, it was a wonderful experience. And, oh, that square is really remarkable. It's remarkable. In the day, there's the water cellars and the, you know, the things that you think about when you think of Morocco. And it was an incredible, this, you know, the snake charmers, and it was, has an incredible.

[00:17:00] Carnival feel, even during the day, and then we had a chance to go to the Café Organa.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: organ. Yes, it's right there. It's, uh, yeah. Organic Cafe. Yes. Yeah. It's the,

CATHY NESBITT: and watch, we were, watch the transformation as sunset was coming, where the square transforms, the water cellars disappear, the snake charmers disappear, and in come the food vendors and, and the other sellers. And it's, it's got, again, a whole new vibe. You know, you get the, um, the jugglers and the, the dancers.

And it was just an incredible, Uh, experience. Morocco is like nowhere else in the world.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Cathy. I just want to add something, you know, back in 80s, I know exactly what I was in terms of age and school, but I know, um, you know, are gonna, um, you know, it's a, it's a stable, if you would, it's, it's a landmark in Marrakesh. At that time, it is the best [00:18:00] place to be if, if you have not said that if you have not been there, then, then you really, really need to.

So, uh, it seems to me like you, you hit really the good spots.

CATHY NESBITT: Yay!

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: and also one thing that nobody can really, they cannot miss it, which is the smell, which is the fog, which is everything, you know, coming out of those, uh, food stalls, which is just amazing, amazing experience. So tell us a little bit more, please, Cathy.

CATHY NESBITT: Yeah, so that was my first introduction to couscous and Moroccan, the spices, and yes, all the aromas. It was, it was remarkable. I mean, Marrakesh is definitely to be experienced, but each town, each little city is different. Little city, I mean, Casablanca, big city.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

CATHY NESBITT: And modern, again, so we left Marrakech, so beautiful, and I speak French, so, you know, we were able to get by with English, French, a little bit of mime. So, you know, [00:19:00] there seemed to be, at that time, plenty of English speakers and French, whoever you need to, like, whatever language you speak, I think there's somebody in Morocco that can help.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: I totally agree. Now, just to give the listeners a little bit of perspective, back in '89, 1989, Casablanca, Was it still is the biggest city in Morocco, but also comparing Casablanca to Marrakech at that time because Casablanca was way way way ahead You know from Marrakech. We're talking minimum 15 years probably because at that time Marrakech was still small a small city Not like today with all the expansions Marrakech in terms of size had You know, quadrupled versus Casablanca.

Now Marrakech is more expanding than Casablanca. However, Casablanca is still the economic heart of Morocco. And then Marrakech and Fes are, you know, in terms of tourism, they are really, really the hot spots. So, um, you're taking me back in time. You're taking me back to my teenage years. [00:20:00] I mean, I love it.

It's incredible. I'm just, I'm just thinking about so many things and so many memories and experiences, you know, with my, with my cousins, with my, you know, schoolmates and stuff. So this is just, uh, I appreciate you sharing this, uh, you know, in a way I kind of needed it. So just take me back in time. Thank you.

What else did you experience in Morocco? Please, Cathy.

CATHY NESBITT: you know, the culture, the markets, the haggling, um, everybody had a story about their arrival. Um, the travelers, you know, at the traveler, um, the inns, and as you're tripping around, you That's what you do is talk to the other travelers like, hey, what did you experience?

And everybody had an experience with, um, most people bought carpets.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Yes.

CATHY NESBITT: We can't resist. How can we?

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Good salespeople.

CATHY NESBITT: It's like, that'll be a retirement plan. Oh, okay. Or, or, you know, you can sell these for [00:21:00] much more in your own country. So that was like, it's like, oh, we can pay for our trip when we get back. But we still have them and they are still, you know, We have, we bought two and they're still displayed in our home and they still look the same, they still look like they're brand new.

I mean, they, they, they really are incredible workmanship. The quality is very good. Um, you know, I would say, what would you, you wanted me to share some, I mean, it's the, that That spearmint tea, like come on in and have the Moroccan hospitality, like you can't say no because, um, they're so compelling, first of all, and it's delicious.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Thank you.

CATHY NESBITT: Even though, you know, coming from a place where you're skeptical of when somebody offers you something for free, like,

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: It's a different culture.

CATHY NESBITT: it's different. It's very different. And, um, and I'm so grateful for the opportunity to have experienced [00:22:00] it and experienced it at a time before technology, before cell phones and Google Translate and things like that.

all of these things, like Google Maps and things that can help you navigate, which are, I'm sure they're very helpful, but it's a very different experience when you need to speak to local people to get your questions answered and depending on people to, um, to help you out. Like, so there's a lot of trust, but I think, you know, we need to trust our gut. If it feels dangerous, maybe it is.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I totally agree because the technology, I mean, it has improved, you know, quite a bit of things, but also looking back into it in terms of experience, you have to rely on, you know, your driver, your local guide, your tour leader. So, um, you know, it's, it's all about trust. absolutely, absolutely.

CATHY NESBITT: after Marrakesh, we traveled to Casablanca and [00:23:00] again, a little bit of culture shock. We were surprised how modern it

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Yeah. Yeah. The freeways. Yeah.

CATHY NESBITT: I, I, you know, again, it's, it makes me sound quite naive and I was, and, you know, now I was 27. If I was to do the trip again, I would do a lot more research on the places I was traveling so that I could benefit more from the history, like go and visit.

You know, different, um, different places, but we were just, you know, a couple of young kids having a fun experience.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: you know, just to add a little bit to what you have said, Kathy, back then, um, 1989, the, uh, well, the most attractive, um, or, you know, um, Hassan II Mosque, which is, uh, attracts quite a bit of tourists, I would say definitely number one, um, in Casablanca, uh, Um, it was not built yet.

So they started building it in I believe in 1987 and it was finished. Um, they finished building it in 1993. So back then it was just in the [00:24:00] process of building it. But even for me, you know, going from Marrakech to Casablanca. I remember my first time visiting Casablanca and it was, it felt like I was in a different country, to be honest with you.

Uh, you know, because Casablanca is so advanced. Marrakech, we, you know, at that time, we, yeah, we have pavement, you know, paved roads and many things, but Casablanca was just in a different level. Um, if you would, so, um, yeah, it's, it's incredible. Everything you're sharing is just, it's, it's right on point. He's just extremely accurate.

And, uh, and you remember it, that's just beyond incredible.

CATHY NESBITT: Again, it was our first, uh, foray into African countries. So we did have quite a bit of culture shock at the beginning. And then you kind of ease into it when you, you know, once you're there for a little while, you, you, you get acclimatized to how things work and how it goes. And. Yeah, it was, we, we thought the people were very friendly and, [00:25:00] um, yeah, we, other than in Tetuan, although we didn't really feel in danger, it just, yeah, it's hard to explain how, how we felt when we were in Tetuan.

It just was so

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: it's uncomfortable. Yeah.

CATHY NESBITT: it was uncomfortable, but Mohammed saved us.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Yes. I'm so glad to hear a lot of things that you, you know, uh, comparing today versus back then. Um, A lot of them are still the same in terms of consistency, which is really good, uh, especially the hospitality, especially, um, the tea culture that we have in Morocco. And also I, I agree with you a hundred percent.

One thing that also did not change, um, yeah, you are in Morocco, but every city has its own culture. Every city has its own vibe. You know, Fes is the oldest Fes, you know, it's, it holds that tradition that You know, it's going back in time. Then Shivshawan is again, it's different. Marrakesh, it's, it's happening.

It's busy and so forth. Then Casablanca, it's, it's very modern, uh, you know, with the, with the nightlife, with the, you know, [00:26:00] offices and buildings and all that stuff. So it's, it just, it's incredible. So, uh, it's like you, you visit in a country, but within that country, there's few other countries.

CATHY NESBITT: Exactly, that's right, little mini countries within, that's well put.

it was really remarkable and I would return, I have not been back to Morocco, um, but it is one of the places that I would definitely return.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: You know, it's not the first time that I hear that because a lot of people, they say, well, I've been to 30 countries, 50 countries, but Morocco is, is that one place that I definitely want to go back to. So I'm, I'm glad to hear that as well. So, um, Cathy, if people, I know people are going to listen to your story, which is incredible.

It's a wonderful, wonderful experience. How would you advise them, uh, to get ready for their trip to Morocco or what would you recommend for them, uh, when they are planning to visit Morocco?

CATHY NESBITT: I would say to, um, do some research on some of the cities that you'd like to go to, map your route of what [00:27:00] you're looking to do. My husband and I were just traveling by bus and we, we didn't, we didn't, other than Mohammed when we first arrived, we didn't have a guide. Uh, it would probably be a good idea to really maximize your time there.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Absolutely.

CATHY NESBITT: know, so you can really see, um, because when you have a guide, it, it really does help you to see places that maybe every tourist doesn't get to see.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: I totally agree. Yeah. And also you save a lot of time because you have, you know, one week or so in, in, in Morocco, you want to maximize your time. Time is an investment as well. So, um, and with the local guides, you'll get to see places like you said, that a lot of tourists are not, you know, they won't see or not aware of.

So

CATHY NESBITT: people should go that's it

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: I totally agree.

CATHY NESBITT: your bag and plan your trip to Morocco I

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: It's been a pleasure. I'm very grateful. This has been a lot of fun. We laughed so hard, even before we started recording. So this [00:28:00] is really, really incredible. And I'm very grateful for you. 

CATHY NESBITT: Would love to share that there was a lot of laughter I'm a laughter yoga teacher and I would love to invite you and your listeners to my laughter yoga club. It's free on Tuesdays, Tuesday morning at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time and it's on Zoom. 30 minutes of super fun self care. And my website is http://cathysclub.com/. Cathy with a C.

AZDEAN ELMOUSTAQUIM: Perfect. Perfect. This has been just beyond incredible. I mean, I'm, I really, really, really appreciate it, Cathy. Thank you so much to the audience to the listeners. We're very grateful for you. Really really appreciate it until next time, keep exploring Morocco!